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California Child Daycare >> San Diego County Home Daycare >> LARRAGA, JANELLE FAMILY CHILD CARE

Information for LARRAGA, JANELLE FAMILY CHILD CARE, a FAMILY DAY CARE HOME in Spring Valley CA:

Provider Name: LARRAGA, JANELLE FAMILY CHILD CARE
Approximate Location: , SPRING VALLEY CA 91977
Contact Phone: (858) 888-2034
License Number: 376628175
Capacity: 14
Enrolled in Subsidized Child Care Program: No
Reviews: There are 27 reviews for this provider.
Rated 1 star by Anonymous on 2024-03-02 03:40:42
Comment: Do not even think about using Janelle. I've seen her stick babies in the garage bc they cry, complains about the kids all day long and about how she hates her life. She even let a fellon live at her house while prividing day car. Feel free to reach out for proof. She acts fake but in truly a terrible person and should not be aloud to watch kids, let alone her own. Just look at all all the complaints. Look at how many times cps has been to her house for her own kids. I have no idea how this place is even in business or anyone would want to leave their child with her.
Rated 1 star by Sarah on 2022-09-30 22:04:28
Comment: I am just wondering how the state of California is allowing this provider to keep her license. If you ever consider sending your child here, there are some things you should probably know. Aside from the things that have already been posted. You can search the domestic court cases yourself for San Diego and see. It is all open to the public. Because this provider has a history of manipulating and lying to parents of kids she watches. Recently there was a temporary restraining order put in place on her. The order came from one of her own underage children. This led to two of them being taken out of the home. So, for everyone who is letting this woman manipulate you into thinking people are just "after her" or "jealous of her success" or "angry drug addicted parents" you look very stupid. This is a very real situation and her having a license is putting other kids in the same danger she put her own in. I am very well aware of how things may look from the outside. I was once someone who trusted her and believed the lies she told me about everyone. It's always everyone else's fault with this woman. She takes absolutely no responsibility for her own actions. Children do not get to open restraining orders against their own parents without a lot of evidence in the case. They are not removed from the home because "people are just after me." All the parents she called CPS on out of revenge all still have custody of their kids.
Rated 1 star by Stunned on 2021-10-01 16:40:59
Comment: Parents I URGE you to visit the licensing site before you chose this provider. You can go to www.ccld.dss.gov and search the facility license number which is 376628175. Or google "look up daycare license in California" and it will bring you there. This website is the STATE website for daycares and care facilities. This "daycare" have 6 completed complaint investigations with 8 complaints in 2 years! That means they have been there 8 times for different reasons in 2 years. This last one occurred September 8th and it states children were exposed to violence. While they were there they obtained POLICE and CPS reports on this provider. This is insane. How is a provider still Licensed with all these complaints. I know this woman personally and I can tell you that I am very scared for her own kids. Watch out and do your research before choosing to leave your kids here. It is all public information and her address is even posted online. This is scary stuff parents. This woman may be seen on the news one day and then we will all regret leaving our children there!
Rated 1 star by Worried on 2021-08-11 20:23:41
Comment: This provider has 4 kids with 3 different men. All whom she keeps from seeing the children. Now she is pregnant with a 5th child from some 44 year old man who left her and wants nothing to do with the baby. She also has OPEN AND ACTIVE cps cases as well as a detective after her from the child abuse unit for literally ABUSING her kids. If you are still sending your kids here there must be something just as wrong with you.
Rated 1 star by Worried Parent on 2021-07-15 16:31:05
Comment: I have very recently been contacted by a detective from the San Diego child abuse unit regarding this provider. There have apparently been 23 CPS cases opened against the provider since 2019. It is very scary that we do not truly know who our kids are in the hands of. Please be careful parents.
Rated 1 star by GGGG on 2021-06-08 20:00:04
Comment:

This woman Janelle at one time I thought she was my friend. SHE TOLD ME HORRIBLE LIE ABOUT SOMEONE WHO LOST THEIR DAUGHTER. She told me it was mother's fault, turns out it was all a lie. This woman used someone else's pain as revenge because she is sick in the head. BEWARE OF HER, she uses CPS as a weapon and her licensed status to get back at people who don't want her to watch their kids. She has even done stuff to old assistants. I was FOOLED AND SO WERE A LOT OF OTHER GOOD PEOPLE.

Rated 1 star by alexander carleone pascuzzi on 2021-04-26 19:31:34
Comment:

I am going to start by saying that it has been a year now since I QUIT working for Larraga Family Child Care. While I was employed, living with and pretty much taking care of Janelle's kids the entire time while she went out, I never once met a "Jessica." I am a single mom 2 children of my own who are ahead of the curve and have everything they need and want. I was so "incompetent" that I was left alone with all the children including the day care one's multiple times. So much so that this childcare was cited for leaving me alone without proper CPR recertification. The owner knew I wasn't certified, yet left me anyways because of how much she trusted me. I was constantly told by Janelle and her children that they wished I was their mom and always asked how I was such a good mom by Janelle. Our arrangement was made with me living there and helping with the kids not just because I needed a room to rent, but also because Janelle at the time needed a new assistant and the extra income of renting said room. There were no drugs ever done in that house or anywhere by me for that matter. In fact, Janelle called CPS on me and they did a very throughout investigation, speaking with at least 4 members of my family. Where at the end the worker actually apologized to ME for the wild accusations that were being thrown around by Janelle as a vendetta because I left. I have text messages of Janelle begging me to come back and work for her. That she would even pay me more to stay. In turn, what really happened is the people this "Jessica" is calling "ghetto" and "ratchet" were tired of seeing Janelle's abuse towards her own children and the daycare children alike. I have let everyone in authority know what I have witnessed. I put my words out there and parents can take them with a grain of salt if they would like. It is their own children they are putting in danger by leaving with this woman. My kids are safe and healthy and to me that is what's most important. No one is coming after Janelle because they are jealous or didn't follow her "rules" as she is stating. We are doing whatever any good and honest person would do. Watching out for the WELL BEING of the poor children in this woman's care. If you all want to believe Janelle running through men every couple months and letting these said men put their hands on innocent kids is a "healthy manner" then that's on you. No one has to look at themselves ion the mirror except you people choosing not to believe. I was never given the shirt off Janelle's back. In fact I was given 4 kids of her own to look after and try to pick up the pieces of after she put hands on them. After she told them all she'd rather be raped than be their mother. After she told them to stop being upset they couldn't see their dads, not to having feelings. NO SHAME ON YOU JANELLE. The only children still here are the ones who's parent you have absolutely fooled. That is why your daycare is a revolving door for kids and assistants alike. This whole matter is in the courts hands now. All that matters to me is that these children are safe. Janelle can continue throwing derogatory words around about POC or women who she thinks are lower than her because she has money. In the end OUR kids are safe and healthy and have a bright future ahead of them. Any child in this care will not. I guarantee that. This is not a kind place, it is full of yelling and abuse. No child should be subject to what Janelle puts them through and I feel really bad for the parents that honestly think this woman is telling the truth. I just hope you don't find out at the expense of your child one day like the other woman Janelle is bashing in this last review. Grow up and get some help, for the kids sake. Just sickening.

Rated 1 star by Parent and old employee on 2021-04-26 19:29:58
Comment:

I am going to start by saying that it has been a year now since I QUIT working for Larraga Family Child Care. While I was employed, living with and pretty much taking care of Janelle's kids the entire time while she went out, I never once met a "Jessica." I am a single mom 2 children of my own who are ahead of the curve and have everything they need and want. I was so "incompetent" that I was left alone with all the children including the day care one's multiple times. So much so that this childcare was cited for leaving me alone without proper CPR recertification. The owner knew I wasn't certified, yet left me anyways because of how much she trusted me. I was constantly told by Janelle and her children that they wished I was their mom and always asked how I was such a good mom by Janelle. Our arrangement was made with me living there and helping with the kids not just because I needed a room to rent, but also because Janelle at the time needed a new assistant and the extra income of renting said room. There were no drugs ever done in that house or anywhere by me for that matter. In fact, Janelle called CPS on me and they did a very throughout investigation, speaking with at least 4 members of my family. Where at the end the worker actually apologized to ME for the wild accusations that were being thrown around by Janelle as a vendetta because I left. I have text messages of Janelle begging me to come back and work for her. That she would even pay me more to stay. In turn, what really happened is the people this "Jessica" is calling "ghetto" and "ratchet" were tired of seeing Janelle's abuse towards her own children and the daycare children alike. I have let everyone in authority know what I have witnessed. I put my words out there and parents can take them with a grain of salt if they would like. It is their own children they are putting in danger by leaving with this woman. My kids are safe and healthy and to me that is what's most important. No one is coming after Janelle because they are jealous or didn't follow her "rules" as she is stating. We are doing whatever any good and honest person would do. Watching out for the WELL BEING of the poor children in this woman's care. If you all want to believe Janelle running through men every couple months and letting these said men put their hands on innocent kids is a "healthy manner" then that's on you. No one has to look at themselves ion the mirror except you people choosing not to believe. I was never given the shirt off Janelle's back. In fact I was given 4 kids of her own to look after and try to pick up the pieces of after she put hands on them. After she told them all she'd rather be raped than be their mother. After she told them to stop being upset they couldn't see their dads, not to having feelings. NO SHAME ON YOU JANELLE. The only children still here are the ones who's parent you have absolutely fooled. That is why your daycare is a revolving door for kids and assistants alike. This whole matter is in the courts hands now. All that matters to me is that these children are safe. Janelle can continue throwing derogatory words around about POC or women who she thinks are lower than her because she has money. In the end OUR kids are safe and healthy and have a bright future ahead of them. Any child in this care will not. I guarantee that. This is not a kind place, it is full of yelling and abuse. No child should be subject to what Janelle puts them through and I feel really bad for the parents that honestly think this woman is telling the truth. I just hope you don't find out at the expense of your child one day like the other woman Janelle is bashing in this last review. Grow up and get some help, for the kids sake. Just sickening.

Rated 5 star by Jessica on 2021-04-18 15:14:53
Comment: I have been with this provider for 3 years. I met Lorin and was honestly at peace when Janelle terminated her employment. Lorin was not meant for child care. Then this parent I believe Nahlas mom is very ghetto and ratchet. Always yelling at Janelle. Making demands. Even going through her cabinets and her and her daughter taking her food. This is the thing. Janelle is extremely nice. So when she sees someone in need she helps. But not all people deserve that. Those people like Lorin and Nahlas mom are drug addicts and very disrespectful ghetto people. But Janelle always seen the good in them. All the neighbors love Janelle but these people right here are upset because when Janelle had enough of their abuse and let them go they came for her because she has a license and children. Being a single mother is hard. So yeah her boyfriend helping with the kids in a healthy matter is great! These women are jealous and mad that Janelle has a wonderful name, family, and business. Look at all these fake review.....what kind of disgusting and nasty people do that and lie on Janelle who had done nothing but given the shirt off her back. Shame on you all for trying to put Janelle’s amazing day care. She does an amazing job and love all these kids. It is a safe place. Janelle has many recommendations. Kids usually don’t leave for years and grow up there because it is a kind place.
Rated 1 star by Lolo on 2021-04-10 22:34:03
Comment: Is no one still going to look into this? We have yet ANOTHER parent coming and saying Janelle is doing all these horrible things? Why do you still let this woman have a license? Hopefully another call into CPS and State will finally open some eyes. THIS WOMAN IS A CHILD ABUSER AND SOCIOPATH AND NEEDS TO BE LOOKED INTO! OPEN YOUR EYES PEOPLE. She is a wolf in sheeps clothing and is being exposed by yet another person. Keep turning a blind eye and it becomes at the expense of another child. Sad and pathetic. KARMA IS ALWAYS ON THE RIGHT SIDE.
Rated 1 star by Javonte whaley on 2021-04-09 21:18:29
Comment: Basically Janelle is a pathological liar. She runs a crap day care. The kids don’t learn anything all day she’s not even able to help her own kids do their homework. She allows her military boyfriend to beat all her kids with a paddle because she’s unable to do and discipline her own children. She lets countless of friends sleep in her house and live there do drugs have men over all the time. She leaves her 12 year old daughter at home alone so she can go sleep with her boyfriend. She tries to use the sob story of her being in foster care and her growing up in a rough environment to make people think she’s just an amazing person, which she’s not. She sits on FaceTime with her boyfriend all day while she should be watching the kids. Also if you befriend Janelle and later realize she’s not someone who you want to be friends with she’ll keep your child in a corner. Not feed them and call them nasty girls or boys. She told my 4 year old she was ugly and a nasty girl.
Rated 1 star by Neighbor on 2021-03-10 23:38:27
Comment:

If I could rate this child care 0 I would. I am a neighbor of Janelle Larraga and constantly hear the children crying/screaming. I know these sounds may be normal in children but the screaming isn’t always the children but the adults and follows after them. It’s concerning and painful to know what can be going on behind doors. Please I would not advise leaving your children under their care. Please look into her case and don’t take her words/promises lightly.

Rated 1 star by Jayne on 2021-03-04 22:50:50
Comment:

The worst experience I have ever had. Janelle Larraga seduced and slept with my husband when he came to pick up my son. Destroyed my whole family! How do you sleep an night Janelle? You ruined my life. Worst daycare ever, her license should be stripped!

Rated 1 star by Lorin on 2021-02-25 03:58:06
Comment: None of these parents know me Janelle. Wow you are so desperate you have to write fake reviews for YOUR OWN business now. I was inappropriate? No, I saw you whip your kids with phone cords. Leave them home alone almost every night to go with different men. Yell and scream at the daycare kids while you sat on Facebook all day. Keep your own kids from all 3 of their dads. Claim to the YMCA and CDA that you watch kids that never showed up. You Then take the money and split it with the parents. Tell parents and anyone that would listen that I crashed your car because I was drinking with my kids in it. When in reality I took it to a doctors appointment with your son and mine. Yet you have no proof of this claim. Whatever, you clearly need to do all of this lying and manipulating because you are being caught up in your own bullsh*t. I do not know any of these "parents" nor do they know me. I work and go to school and take care of my children full time. If you want to avoid drama and your child possibly being injured AVOID this daycare at all costs.
Rated 5 star by Semajay on 2021-02-24 01:40:57
Comment: My son has been at this day care for for 6 years. Janelle has always been so sweet and attentive to our accommodations! Lorin Gladstone needs to get over the fact she was fired and stop making fake reviews. Your attempts at trying to slander and ruin Janelle reputation is shameful on you. Her business and Awesome care speaks for itself! Janelle you rock and know us parents are right next to you rooting for you!
Rated 5 star by Ami Richards on 2021-02-23 20:41:57
Comment:

My child has been going to Janelle’s facility for 4 years now. I’m writing this review because All these negative reviews are from a women I know Lorin Gladstone. She was an employee that was very inappropriate and so Janelle had to let her go. There are always other people that try to ruin it for other parents and children when they don’t get their way. I can let you know Janelle is the best and was a former foster child and does this from her heart. Check out her website and Facebook. It shows it all. My son is advanced for his age and Janelle is a blessing. Sorry Janelle that you have to go through this but you have all of us in you corner! Thanks love!

Rated 5 star by Janelle Larraga on 2021-02-23 20:35:37
Comment: Hello Parents! I apologize for all the negative reviews posted. They are from a former employee Lorin Gladstone who we let go due to inappropriate behavior and language. Since that day over a year ago, it seems like her sole purpose is to deter parents from our child care. Fortunately our reputation speaks for itself! ???? Please visit our website at: Www.Janellelarragacares.com And our Private Facebook at: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2945651075663470/ Blessings and have a wonderful amazing day! You will be granted temporary access to view our amazing facility!
Rated 1 star by Sasha Welps/Yvette Rodgers on 2021-02-22 20:06:39
Comment:

Again with the fake reviews. I strongly urge you to chose another provider, this woman has severe mental instability and should not be caring for children. Here are more fake reviews Janelle is continuing to write. Sasha Welps 2 hours ago Critical: Professionalism, Quality, Value Pulled up to get an oil change and what they charged me they didn’t! They ripped me off and charged $200 for an oil change on my Kia! Then when I refused to pay they threatened to call the police on me and said they knew where I lived and they know how to get me! The most worst experience in my life! Now I gotta worry I’m going to get hurt!

Yvette Rodgers 2 hours ago Critical: Professionalism, Quality, Value Battery was going out so I came in for a quote since they had some deal online. The front desk lady named Lorin Gladstone was in the back talking on the phone and I could smell the whole office smelt like weed! When she noticed me she came back and had a lil baby girl that is pictured on their website with Bruce and she had the pipe in her hand! OMG! I left and calling CPS right away!

Why do people continue to use this woman?

Rated 1 star by Alex on 2021-02-12 00:01:30
Comment:

The owner sleeps with the kids fathers and then brags about it. She slept with Raphaels dad and would laugh to her assistant about it every time he came to pick his kid up. She would also bad mouth the parents constantly. Pull their pictures up on Facebook and laugh and make fun of them and their kids. This women is a wolf in sheep's clothing. I've heard what she has done to her old assistant, lying on her and her kids name. Calling CPS on her and making false claims. Lauren was her old assistants name. The owner let her move in with her and hired her for $5 an hour and then just took total advantage of her. After Lauren realized the owner of this childcare was abusing her kids and leaving Lauren to care for her kids every night she got out of there as quick as she could. Then the owner went and wrote a bunch of fake reviews. She is continuing to harass Lauren. Made up stories of how when Lauren moved out she trashed everything. Yet has no proof to back up her claims. Lauren didn't get kicked out she left. The owner was mad so she put all of Lauren's stuff in trash bags, broke half her things and dumped beer all over her stuff. This women is not who she says she is. But time will tell and karma is always on the right side. At least we don't have to fake how happy we are and how much we ACTUALLY love our children. She just uses hers as pawns. So so sad, wonder how she sleeps at night. No one was fired because of lack of care. The assistant left because the owner is not who everyone thinks she is. Again, time will tell

Rated 1 star by SO CONCERNED on 2020-10-28 21:33:19
Comment: Don't do anything to get on Janelle's "bad side" like deciding to leave and not work for her anymore because she is a user and abuses kids. She will then go and write fake reviews and attack your parents businesses because she has issues with you. She will also call CPS and make fake claims telling them you told your son to kill himself while he lived with you all. Here are some fake reviews Janelle posted to get back at Lorin. By bashing her father's business. Natalie Reynoldson 1 review 3 months ago- Critical: Professionalism Seems like this place has alot of drama. I pulled up to see if I can get a oil change and I saw a older man and a female with a baby in her hand yelling about some thing. They were cussing and making threats to someone name Janelle saying stuff like they were gonna beat her up and key her car ect and I just got back in my car and drove away because it was a huge scene that my kids didn't need to see. I come on to see the reviews and seems like they have drama with someone and not really liked. How unprofessional. No thanks. James Crew 1 review 4 months ago- Critical: Professionalism, Quality, Value Saw my car that's supposed to be worked on being driven in la mesa by the front desk assistant who has blond hair and as my wife pulled up to the side. The assistant was drinking beer and had her infant in the car. I went to pick up my car and left. I didn't even bother to speak with the owner. It didn't seem worth the trouble. When I went to get my car the blond assistant was drinking what looked like something called Kratom and had more beer behind the desk on the floor trying to hide it when I walked in. It makes sense. She looks like a drug addict.....never again and honestly I fear for her daughter. Don't come here if you want a drug and alcoholic mother using your car and driving all over the place with her infant daughter.....beware....I did contact CPS so hopefully she still works there....poor kid. Photo of Ashley C. Ashley C. La Mesa, CA 0 friends 1 review Share review Embed review Send message Follow Ashley C. Report review 10/6/2020 This place is a complete joke and should be shut down! They do bad business and rip people off. Told my cousin a price for work and when she came back to pick up the car they did work she didn't ask for because they wanted to be "nice" but charged her Several hundreds dollars more for work that wasn't supposed to be done. When she refused they started telling me she was ungrateful and called the police on her! She cried and I had to come help her. Police came and the owner Bruce and his front desk were threatening her before the cops came. Telling us that we better watch out cuz they know where we live and they will make sure we get ours! How terrifying! Police let us take the car because his front desk girl with blonde hair wouldn't give us the keys. She laughed and threw the keys on the ground! We drove away shaking with the most horrible experience ever! Idk how people can act like this! This is horrible! We filled a restraining order and suing this company! Don't come here at all costs! I should have looked at the reviews they are a bad business and seems like they have problems with many people! Even some day care that has nothing to do with cars! Car owners BEWARE!!!! AVOID at all costs! Shame on you Bruce! And if he tries to say this never happened! Lies!!! WATCH YOUR CHILDREN WITH THIS WOMEN SHE IS A SOCIOPATH
Rated 1 star by Concerned Parent on 2020-06-15 20:46:01
Comment: I have personally witnessed this provider not only swear and yell constantly at her children but also put her hands on them in front of the daycare. She also puts on a huge front like everything is great and all the kids are happy. I watched her do circle time more than a handful of times and she just yelled at the kids until they were all smiling in the pictures she was taking. She also lets her kids get rough with the other daycare kids and then tells the parents that their kid was the instigator. She just sits at her computer all day and makes the kids sit there while she does paper work or plays on facebook. Then when its supposed to be time for lunch or activity she just yells at the kids to look happy and put on a façade for the parents. She also will employ you and tell you that her kids are part of the daycare so you have to take care of them too. The moment covid started she went and picked up a man she met on the internet from the airport and brought him to her daycare! She leaves the assistants home over ratio so she can go to the gym or shopping or a guys house. I do not recommend this facility to anyone for employment or childcare. This woman puts on a HUGE front for the parents but behind closed doors she is someone totally different. Please be cautious with your little ones.
Rated 5 star by Tenille on 2020-01-23 01:40:41
Comment: Thank God for passionate people like Janelle, she is well educated when it comes to child care. My daughter is happy here and never had no complaints I love how she is very attentive to the kids and offers so many services like pick ups from school and preparing the younger kids for preschool, she definitely makes a difference in the most positive way and she is very optimistic about growing her business to service parents.
Rated 5 star by Cherilyn on 2019-12-26 20:23:56
Comment: We have been using Janelle’s daycare for over a year now. Our grandson loves the facility and his friends and especially Ms. Janelle! We have gone through a lot of personal issues in this last year that have required us to adopt our grandson. Janelle has been by our side the entire time and has loved and nutured our grandson through the whole experience! We have been very happy with her daycare and love all the extras she does with her lessons every day! She has taught our grandson a lot already!
Rated 1 star by Horrible care on 2019-12-25 06:57:40
Comment:

I asked Janelle to let me pay her on the first day of care which would be for Christmas Eve and I could not find anyone to watch my children on this day. Janelle took a $480 down payment claiming she would not hold a spot if I didn’t pay her before the first day of care. I later read a complaint that she had been Investigated for yelling at kids and possibly injuring a child. When I asked her about the complaint she said that parents can be crazy and lie. She then changed her story and said that her ex husband wrote a fake review. She also said that the complaint was that she had strangled a child and she said that was a lie.....I asked her to give me at least half of my money back because I could not take my children somewhere that has complaints of abuse. She stated it was not refundable and proceeded to call my crazy for saying that she shouldn’t do this to someone on Christmas especially if it means I will not be able to afford further childcare and I will not be able to afford to pay my bills. It is scary that I almost left my children with this person that has had complaints against her and has been investigated on multiple occasions. She has moved her location several times. please don’t entrust your children to this person.

Rated 5 star by Brittany on 2019-10-11 22:29:40
Comment: I am very thankful I found Janelle and her Day Care. She posts every day the activities that are done on her facebook and instagram. She has a preschool based curriculum and the children are advanced for there age. My son is 10 months old and he already knows how to a marker or crayon using the pencil grip! She is amazing. So blessed to have her.
Rated 5 star by Natile on 2019-08-13 16:47:18
Comment: My children have been going to Janelle's Day care for 3 years since they were 1 years old. She teaches a Preschool Ciriculum and preps the children for Preschool. My children are older and she has always treated them with kindness and care. They come home talking about all the awesome things they have learned and are very advanced for their age. She also has a facebook that she posts the lessons taught every single day. concerning the above conserned parent. I know that she had to fire an assistant due to not supervising the children in May. Such a shame that someone would write a false review and hinder Janelle's reputatation. My children has been their for years and so have their friends. Janelle doesnt have many spaces available. Her day care is high quality and also affordable. Thank you for all you do and me and my children appricate you! Sad to see we have to leave but we are on to Kindergarden now!
Rated 1 star by Concerned Parent on 2019-03-26 21:20:37
Comment: I would not trust my kids at this daycare. I have heard the things that the owners says in front of kids and have also seen a lot of children left unattended outside. She constantly yells at the kids and there always seems too be a lot kids sick. When confronting the owner (Janelle) she gets very aggressive and confrontational when asking about her behavior towards the childrenX I’m actually very surprised that they would even let someone with this attitude have a daycare and care for children let alone to get paid for it. If you love your kids do not take them here.
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